Curse

Watermelon Tacos · Jul 05, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Hello everyone! I just rolled an ele and I wanted to use Searing Flames as an elite but I wasn't sure how much fire magic is needed. Right now I have a fire magic head piece but I'm not sure if 2 extra fire magic is worth the -75 hp

Hope you super good players out there can help. Thanks in advance

Squishy ftw · Jul 05, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

In my opinion, no, it's not worth it.

Twin Blade Warriror · Jul 05, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

if its for pve..sure imo thats ok..but for pvp..uhm no

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jul 05, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

A newbie questioning the -75, I am so proud, and yes it is usally not worth it for sure in PvP. In PvE the smart thing is to run minors but I always run superiors (on casters) cause I trust that my heros will keep me up.

The Arching Healer · Jul 05, 2009, 09:10 PM // 21:10

PvE: yes
PvP: no

Mad Lord of Milk · Jul 05, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

-75 HP to get +2 More Fire Magic then Minor Rune = NO

MagmaRed · Jul 05, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

As long as you know HOW to manage aggro, skill use, and team/hero builds, you can easily use Superior Runes. I have played long enough in PvE that I know how to handle anything I'll face. Since I know what builds to take and how to manage aggro, the health loss isn't an issue for me. In fact, I often run 1 Superior and 1 Major on some of my builds. My Ranger will often run a Superior Marksmanship and a Major Expertise so I can get breakpoints and still use a 3rd attribute, and my Necro often runs Superior Death and Major Soul Reaping.

Health loss isn't a big deal, but only if you know how to stay alive. And that doesn't mean healing alone. Damage reduction and health gain are important, but knowing what you face and how to deal with it is more important.

Until you know the game well and how to handle what you'll face, stick with Minor Runes to make it easier.

IronSheik · Jul 05, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

For a caster (Minus Monk) I run superiors in PvE.

Marverick · Jul 05, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

In PvE it really depends. For fire magic, as it's armor-dependent, that +2 FM will only add like 2 points of damage per spell, which is not worth it. If we're talking about something like Spiteful Spirit, which adds 4 points of AoE damage each time the spell triggers, then it might be worth it.

If you're H/H'ing then you can run superiors freely since henchmen have 480 health anyway.

If you're playing frontline, a superior/major isn't a bad idea so you can attract aggro more easily.

If you're a Paragon/Ranger, you can run superiors freely since you are hardly targeted anyway.

BadgerzFTW · Jul 05, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Don't use -hp runes until you're sure you can handle the situation.

the Puppeteer · Jul 05, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

pve - yes
pvp - pls no

Improvavel · Jul 05, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Have both a headpiece with a sup and one with a minor.

For PvE nm early areas, it is ok to run a superior.

HM it will be a lot less safe. I recommend you a minor for elite areas and HM.

By having the 2, you can swap from superior to minor in case of death penalty.

Also be aware that SF power will dramatically diminishes as the foes get higher level, regardless.

Not the best elite, IMO, but by all means have fun with (will be quite good in early-mid nm though).

Expherious · Jul 05, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Superiors are definitley worth it in PvE and PvP, just more so on some classes then others

think of it this way, having a superior rune on is like being level 23, which in-fact gives you a distinct advantage over other players and monsters.

Im not saying that they should always be equipped but not using them is only limiting yourself. I've never had a second thought about using a superior rune and it has payed off in numerous instances.

Chthon · Jul 05, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

SF isn't one of the stronger cases for a Sup rune. There's no meaningful breakpoints above 14. If you can survive without trouble using Sup, use it; otherwise, don't.

Jenn · Jul 06, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Nevermind PvP - we all know you shouldn't run around in PvP with a superior rune.

Normal Mode PvE: sure, wear a sup head-piece. The only place you might want to not do this for is some dungeons, but even then it's not too bad.

Hard Mode PvE: No. First of all, in hard mode straight elemental damage is actually pretty weak, so the extra wee bit of damage you'd get from SF is further minmalized and trivialized by the stronger enemies. It's decent in some areas, but others it is le crap. Even if you didn't need to be concerned about your health in Hard Mode, the benefit of a miniscule increase in damage is not worth losing 75 health.

Also, since health and armor ARE important in hard mode, it's generally advisable that you don't go running around and make it easy as pie for enemies to 1-2 hit kill you

.

--------

Whoever advised/okayed running 1 sup rune and 1 major rune either doesn't play hard mode, or goes through it very slowly. Having yourself and your heroes well equipped, including build, weapons and armor, will allow you to survive situations, sustain good killing power, and actually allow you to agro/do more at once.

Take into account hero AI, enemy AI, and the situation. Even if you do hit a breakpoint on your hero's skillbar by using a major rune, is that extra damage significant enough to make a difference? Even if every hero did more damage, you're looking at 30-50 more actual damage total, and if you're using heroes AND henchies, it's probably not all on the same target =P

Just weigh the benefit/cost of what you're doing, suit your bars and your heroes bars to the area, weapon and rune yourself & heroes to maximize efficiency, survivability and damage output =).

Improvavel · Jul 06, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Expherious

think of it this way, having a superior rune on is like being level 23, which in-fact gives you a distinct advantage over other players and monsters.

Yeah but with the health of a level 16.

Jeydra · Jul 06, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Run the Superiors. Lots of people will tell you the -75 HP isn't worth it, but newsflash: it doesn't matter so long as you don't die, and against the average area you shouldn't be dying.

Then others will say the 75 HP matters if it's the difference between getting killed in one / two hits and killed in more. Maybe, but another newsflash: if you are against monsters that deal 200+ damage a hit, micro Prot Spirit and aggro properly or the extra 75 HP won't save you. Even +168 HP from Vital Blessing @ 12 spec doesn't save you.

And then some will argue that micro'ing Prot Spirit and proper aggro takes time. Indeed it does, but if you use Superior Fire, you have 16 Fire Magic for increased damage. No matter what the detractors may say, increased damage is increased damage is increased damage, and so long as you don't die first you will kill mobs faster. Against the average area there is no reason why running the Minor works faster than running the Superior.

In any case, if you're worried, you can run two headpieces. Rune one headpiece with a Minor rune and the other with a Superior. Start with the Superior and if you end up with heavy DP switch to Minor. Personally I don't have the inventory space; and in any case if I end up with heavy DP I pretty much conclude it's time to change my tactics / teambuild, not blame the Superior rune. In PvE the only class I'd not run the Superior on is the backline, be it Monks, Restoration Rits / Necros or ER Elementalists. They need to stay alive more than everyone else, and in any case overhealing does no good.

PvP is completely different. In this case you can't afford the Superior because the other team will notice and you will be spiked out. You can still run them in select areas - eg. AB where you don't get DP - but only do it for something important, for example to hit the breakpoint where your entire chain wipes out the Archers at JQ.

Lishy · Jul 06, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

You kind of need superior as a fire ele. Fire doesn't do much dmg against high armored enemies.

Accursed · Jul 06, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

PvP is a no.

PvE is a yes because it's so god damn easy.

Improvavel · Jul 06, 2009, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Run the Superiors. Lots of people will tell you the -75 HP isn't worth it, but newsflash: it doesn't matter so long as you don't die, and against the average area you shouldn't be dying.

Then others will say the 75 HP matters if it's the difference between getting killed in one / two hits and killed in more. Maybe, but another newsflash: if you are against monsters that deal 200+ damage a hit, micro Prot Spirit and aggro properly or the extra 75 HP won't save you. Even +168 HP from Vital Blessing @ 12 spec doesn't save you.

And then some will argue that micro'ing Prot Spirit and proper aggro takes time. Indeed it does, but if you use Superior Fire, you have 16 Fire Magic for increased damage. No matter what the detractors may say, increased damage is increased damage is increased damage, and so long as you don't die first you will kill mobs faster.

Of course SF @14FM deals 94 damage vs armor 60 and @16FM it deals 106 for a total of 12 damage difference. But when we set the armor to 100 (which lvl 20 rangers will have and lvl 20 warriors with shields and paras will be close), SF @14FM deals 47 and SF @ 16FM deals 53 for a grand total difference of 6.

So basically it helps more (in absolute terms, in percentage it is the same) against easier foes that deal less damage to you, than against hard foes that deal more damage to you and have more health to boot. Don't forget regular caster mobs get 3amor per level over 20 over their base 60, and medium and heavy armors gain at least 3 per level too. I'll test soon against some bug warrior insects or some other to check of the armor increase is the same or even higher.

Makes you think about that -75 health when the mobs damage increased dramatically but your damage has a pathetic increase of 6 damage at the cost of 75 health.